Forums » 3rd Party Product Discussions

Considering this possibility for SE users

    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:07 AM EDT

    Hello SE community, Maybe for some people I can be annoying, but I just want to said I AM VERY FRUSTRATED with how some amazing plugins (apparently) that were released without having been tested.

    I realized that I have been more like QA tester instead of making money as owner of a platform, you cannot imagine how much time I have spent since last October with plugins that I purchased to an expert (SocialNetworkingSolutions), I just cannot believe how many of the plugins were approved by SE. 

    The support team started being very nice, and maybe they got tired of me, because I started reporting A LOT of BUGS, and sometimes their answers obviously are not acceptable, as business man, I cannot accept silly excuses,  my responsibility is to inform my concerns. 

    Now, as a very pro-active entrepreneur instead of complaining, I need see what I need to do, I am considering to create a developer team to join SE and show many of the arrogant experts that things CAN BE DONE WELL, that support service can be much better, special for customers of SE on Americas. 

    Of course I can do this if SE do not banned me for being honest and direct with my complains. Best Regards.

     

     


    This post was edited by Angel at July 11, 2020 12:44 AM EDT
    • 42 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:42 AM EDT

    Count me in

    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:49 AM EDT
    Yay! first one, I am taking this very seriously.  My goal will be QUALITY instead of QUANTITY and 100% tested, plugins fully complete and they will work correctly from the first, and your complaints will never be taken negatively, I will never give silly excuses to avoid my responsibility and my lack of action.  Thank you Arazindo.
    Arazindo said:

    Count me in

     

    • 42 posts
    July 11, 2020 1:19 AM EDT

    I agree, socialengine is already good script and need real support from their users too.

    If user bought plugin with alot of bug, their web wont get many member and the web died.

     

     

    • 73 posts
    July 11, 2020 1:51 AM EDT

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    First, you need to remove Jquery, AJax, and mootools. (Even framework developers started removing it. ex. bootstrap5)

    The second is to introduce css framework (bootstrap or mdc) and frontend framework (angular or react).

    The third is to prevent the sale of fxxxxxxx third-party seller extensions. We need to fix the bad habit of selling the function in pieces.

    Fourth, third-party sellers revise the same product one or two years later and sell it as a new product. The user must purchase the product again. And the old product is discarded. The same product is obvious, but we upgrade it a little and sell it with the name modified.

    Users are not stupid. You must know why you only use SE products and do not want to use third-party products.


    This post was edited by Lee KiWon at July 11, 2020 2:05 AM EDT
    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 1:53 AM EDT
    I am total agreed with you.
    Lee KiWon said:

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    • 42 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:14 AM EDT
    Lee KiWon said:

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    I agree with you.

    One more thing, most plugin from third-party don't have manual, every time I  have problem/installing plugin, and ask for manual, always Third-party said let them installing/fix the problem for me, it is good for me, but I need to know, what is the problem and how to fix by myself. 

    • 73 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:17 AM EDT

    If a third-party solution with similar functions to SE is announced, the most active users will be SE users.

    Some operators are preparing to write modern code. SE is a crisis.

    Third-party vendors must also know this.

    Please do not upset users. The products you publish are great, but really slow and buggy.

    When you get used to it, you discard the product and sell the new one.

    Third-party sellers sell the same feature upgrades. Rather, charge for the upgrade.

    Even if you write like this, you don't expect it to be delivered to the bosses of your company.

    • 73 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:19 AM EDT
    Arazindo said:
    Lee KiWon said:

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    I agree with you.

    One more thing, most plugin from third-party don't have manual, every time I  have problem/installing plugin, and ask for manual, always Third-party said let them installing/fix the problem for me, it is good for me, but I need to know, what is the problem and how to fix by myself. 

    I don't know because each third-party seller has different policies. A feature modification request was made to a third-party seller who made a transaction. The company broke the site.. I had to close the site. This is my experience.
    This is my experience.
    I know there are good ideas and features for third party sellers. However, there are also many bugs. They sell functions split.


    This post was edited by Lee KiWon at July 11, 2020 2:25 AM EDT
    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:23 AM EDT

    Oh yeah,

    My package came with at least 3 broken plugins, even when they fixed it for me, they did not give me the zip file with the fixed plugin, and declined to inform me what was the issue. So, if in the future I need that fixed file I do not have it.

    Arazindo said:
    Lee KiWon said:

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    I agree with you.

    One more thing, most plugin from third-party don't have manual, every time I  have problem/installing plugin, and ask for manual, always Third-party said let them installing/fix the problem for me, it is good for me, but I need to know, what is the problem and how to fix by myself. 

     


    This post was edited by Angel at July 11, 2020 2:25 AM EDT
    • 73 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:27 AM EDT
    Angel said:

    Oh yeah,

    My package came with at least 3 broken plugins, even when they fixed it for me, they did not give me the zip file with the fixed plugin, and declined to inform me what was the issue. So, if in the future I need that fixed file I do not have it.

    Arazindo said:
    Lee KiWon said:

    I agree with this, but I think the root cause lies with both SE and third party plugin sellers.
    SE code is too old. We are passive in the introduction of modern code.
    SE is very good, but you need to introduce more modern code.
    Third-party plug-in sellers are even more painful.
    Third-party plug-in sellers must clearly sanction the SE's policy of splitting and selling numerous features. Too painful for users, busy opening wallets and continuing to produce bugs.
    I am very negative about the sales policies of third party plugin operators.

     

    I agree with you.

    One more thing, most plugin from third-party don't have manual, every time I  have problem/installing plugin, and ask for manual, always Third-party said let them installing/fix the problem for me, it is good for me, but I need to know, what is the problem and how to fix by myself. 

     

    In my experience, I have never received a broken file.
    Service was great. The answer is late, but I respond.
    However, none of the final issues were resolved.

    • Moderator
    • 5090 posts
    July 11, 2020 4:55 AM EDT

    Keep this thread on topic for third party improvements. You can't throw various topics in one thread as it gets too confusing and hard to follow. It is not so simple to remove mootools and other things and introduce code. We already have v6 in the works with vast improvements. We have to take it little by little due to the code as it is. But, that is for a different thread and if you want to keep this thread running, keep it on topic to how to improve third party. If you want to discuss SE core code, another thread should be done but keep it on target and non bashing. Constructive is always better than destructive. Remember, it is not simple in a script with 100,000 lines of code and things that interconnect. As well as third party - if we do things too fast you won't be able to use your plugins at all as the experts won't be able to provide updates easily. Start a new thread and I can explain some of what's coming in v6 and beyond.

    On the topic of this thread for third party products. That is not so simple either. I also have plugins I make under my ScriptTechs company. The reason I started making plugins back at that other script was the same reason you mention. I know how it goes. It is not just an SE issue. I've been to many scripts and was a manager at our top competitor. The issue is seen in any script. Every script I've tried. It is not third party. It is not client. It is a combination. The culture of the entire development community needs to change. This is one of my own personal goals as well and I have talked extensively with SNS on this particular topic as they work with us. Their goal is also improvement. But, it is also client attitude that has to change so don't put it all on developers. If you don't admit that change is needed on both fronts, then you won't ever solve the problem.

    To be improved:

    Developers:

    1. Look first to the need. Don't look first to what plugin is already made and then make a copy. In our private developer area, I have said many many times to be innovative. Do it. Make it light, fast and simple. Don't overbuild to grab a dollar.

    2. Stop with the heavy bundles. You know it hurts a client to have such a large bundle. Again, think first to the actual need. I have seen clients come to BryZar and end up having to take huge servers just because they install every plugin in the big bundles. They don't need half of them. They don't need the expense. These bundles are so big that our core developer had to manually upload them to the storage server. WTH?

    3. Stop making plugins that you know will hurt a client. Fake user generators, Backups (every host offers backup), RSS generators (the worst plugin ever made as it can crash a site and get google banned for copying content), and anything else that you know isn't really needed. Greed. Plain and simple greed.

    4. If you have a bug, fix the damned thing. How many times have I found bugs that clients send me tickets complaining that they have to purchase support over and over again at your sites just to get fixed. It takes me one test to see the bug? Fix it. (this is not meaning custom work, that'll be discussed in the client area)

    5. Stop paying for reviews. This hurts us worse than anything. It fosters an air of mistrust when clients see all positive reviews. NO ONE has all positive reviews for 5,000 reviews. I will be removing that review system at some point because it is the worst practice and you all do it. It is even against policy.

    6. Listen. Learn. Clients are the ones using the products. If you hear from more than one client that x feature is needed, or x feature is not good, listen to that feedback. Improve the product for the ones using it. It will pay off with better loyalty from clients who feel a connection with you and an appreciation for the effort to improve. 

    7. Stop looking for ways to pick a client clean. We (the SE team) are passionate about providing a way for clients to achieve their dreams. To lift themselves up. To realize success. Your practices to find a way to take every dollar destroy their dream and that hurts. James, our CEO, always says "with love" in mind. Do things with love in your heart. Maybe it sounds cliche. But this is the core of SE. The real core. We actually care. It's not a slogan. We give a damn about helping our extended family of clients and experts to achieve success and to soar beyond their wildest dreams. 

     

    Clients:

    1. Look at the demo of a plugin. Ask questions of the developer about features you are looking for. This is very important. If a feature is not there, expect that you need to either pay for it to be done or wait for it to be added if the developer deems it a great feature to have. 

    2. Do not ever blackmail a developer to get free customization or plugins or service. This means, don't say you will post bad feedback just to get x feature or whatever. Realize that this developer has staff and they all have families to feed too. I have been on the receiving end of this many times myself until someone realizes I am staff. Someone wants some color change, some little feature, etc etc. Those things take time and time is money that the developer has to pay someone to do or take from updating their plugins, or making new stuff, just to do. This practice ruins developers and drives off the good ones. 

    3. Don't have unreal expectations. Everyone has hours of operation. Do not expect a developer to drop everything to attend to your every need or to respond like you are at McDonald's drive through. Things take time. There may be other tickets. If you haven't whitelisted their email, you may not even be receiving answers. I have seen experts having to work through holidays because a client did #2 above and then these experts had to skip these important family events in order to save their business. Yes, save it. Why? Because they know that a bad review can kill their business and destroy their dreams. 

    4. If you want customizations done, realize that those need custom updates too so budget for it. Don't expect the developer to budget for it. Again, they need to eat too. Don't be selfish. For custom work, plan it out. Have it detailed. I prefer mind mapping (there is free software) as it provides a flowchart of all of the features you expect. If you are thorough with your customization request, it'll go a long way to having a successful project for you and a great relationship with the expert you choose. 

    5. If you customize a plugin, don't expect free support from an expert to fix issues as your customization can be causing the issues. No script I know of offers support for customized stuff. It is an unrealistic expectation. 

    6. Stop looking for ways to get free stuff. We (the SE team) are passionate about providing a way for developers to achieve their dreams. To lift themselves up. To realize success. Your desire to get every customization for free destroys their dream and that hurts. James, our CEO, always says "with love" in mind. Do things with love in your heart. Maybe it sounds cliche. But this is the core of SE. The real core. We actually care. It's not a slogan. We give a damn about helping our extended family of clients and experts to achieve success and to soar beyond their wildest dreams. Remember, on the other end of that computer is a developer who also has a family to feed and staff to pay who also have families. Every customization they do costs them money that has to come from someplace. 

    Yes this was long. But I've seen this for well over 10 years in so many scripts. It's time to change. We need to all work together for that change. Invite experts to this thread too. Let them provide insight. The goal here should be improving this environment. 


    This post was edited by Donna at July 11, 2020 5:21 AM EDT
    • 294 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:15 PM EDT

    Hei Folks.
    Mikel Here.
    I have been reading this discussion.

    For a long time ive been using SE and also another Company before i came to SE. I pretty much followed Donna to Se (not that im her stalker  )

    I have been using 3rd developer products for a long time on several sites. Some i have been happy with but most ive just deleted and got refunded money.
    Also i have some loyal members who test the life out of plugins and find all kinds of bugs and faults and then tell me. They are my most important part of my site. They help me and my security team decide what plugins i could use to enhance my site and what to throw away.

    I must have spent at least $1000 over the years on 3rd party plugins and then after too many bugs and issues and then being told to pay to have the bugs fixed is an insult. It is like buying a car with square wheels and then being told if you want round wheels its going to cost you $50 and when they fix it, you find out they just put triangle wheels on instead. I mean REALLY ???

    I am at the point now where i am not buying anymore 3rd party Plugins. Now i am removing 3rd party plugins because its better for my site.
    I am tired of doing upgrades and then having to fix faults or finding bugs that the upgrades created.

    I test the demo's but many times the demo's on the seller site dont always resemble the product i buy and have installed. its only when my users use the plugin i then find out its very buggy or causes issues with other things. So now instead of getting it fixed, i just remove the plugin. I have pretty much gone back to only using SE plugins because they work and they are simple. No need for advanced versions that are full of bugs and create other issues.

    For a couple of years i have spoken to several developers about bugs, faults, and the size of the plugins but as yet i have yet to see that a developer has actually listened to me..
    Example: I have a store / marketplace plugin on my site plus several additional plugins that work with it. I was made aware that most of my business and public members did not use the majority of the plugin or additions. so for a couple of years i told the developer what the issues are and asked if they could make a lite, small version,  such as, Store, product list, product search, click and buy. thats how my members use it.
    As yet developers have taken no action but instead kept making upgrades with bugs. I was quoted $5000 to create such a plugin, i nearly choked on my coffee.. $5000 for a plugin that already exists and only needed to be scaled back...  NOOOOO i said. so i got an old plugin and scaled it back myself in 1 Hour and it works great. Just turned off some features, thats all.

    I always look through the Store to see if anything new is available. sadly No. seems like developers have stopped developing.. Many 3rd party plugins are very similar to each other not nothing special and most of them i have tried and rejected or deleted from my site..

    I have given up with 3rd party plugins now.. My members and i want something that works, is fun, small and lite. They dont care if it has bells and flashing lights and sparkly things, they just to have fun with something that works, thats simple to use.

    I have been away for a while, and in that time, things have changed, business and members work different, work or play smarter and want new innovative things. But it seems 3rd part developers have been asleep and not noticed the change that has been happening for several years.

    One rule i always try and stick to is: If you dont change, if you dont evolve, sooner or later you will become irrelevant, unwanted, outdated and in the end you will fade into a memory.. Just ask the Neanderthals... ooops sorry , youre too late, they died out because they failed to change, adapt, evolve and so faded into memory.

    We Want Change, when do we want it, Now...

    Remember 3rd party developers...there are always more and newer and innovative developers waiting to take your place. Just saying...

    Anyway, must go... got 3rd party plugin bugs and issues to report..

    Mikel.

     

    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:41 PM EDT
    Mikel, I think there is no better explanation than yours, I really appreciate. For me, everything you mention is very important, which is exactly why I have not launched the platform after 8 months, even though I have the full collection of plugins, as it turns out that many of these are a joke. As Dona says, they have many barriers (boundaries) to make it easy. Let's hope that as you say, they do it well or that they leave others the place to do it. Thank you.
    mikel said:

    Hei Folks.
    Mikel Here.
    I have been reading this discussion.

    For a long time ive been using SE and also another Company before i came to SE. I pretty much followed Donna to Se (not that im her stalker  )

    I have been using 3rd developer products for a long time on several sites. Some i have been happy with but most ive just deleted and got refunded money.
    Also i have some loyal members who test the life out of plugins and find all kinds of bugs and faults and then tell me. They are my most important part of my site. They help me and my security team decide what plugins i could use to enhance my site and what to throw away.

    I must have spent at least $1000 over the years on 3rd party plugins and then after too many bugs and issues and then being told to pay to have the bugs fixed is an insult. It is like buying a car with square wheels and then being told if you want round wheels its going to cost you $50 and when they fix it, you find out they just put triangle wheels on instead. I mean REALLY ???

    I am at the point now where i am not buying anymore 3rd party Plugins. Now i am removing 3rd party plugins because its better for my site.
    I am tired of doing upgrades and then having to fix faults or finding bugs that the upgrades created.

    I test the demo's but many times the demo's on the seller site dont always resemble the product i buy and have installed. its only when my users use the plugin i then find out its very buggy or causes issues with other things. So now instead of getting it fixed, i just remove the plugin. I have pretty much gone back to only using SE plugins because they work and they are simple. No need for advanced versions that are full of bugs and create other issues.

    For a couple of years i have spoken to several developers about bugs, faults, and the size of the plugins but as yet i have yet to see that a developer has actually listened to me..
    Example: I have a store / marketplace plugin on my site plus several additional plugins that work with it. I was made aware that most of my business and public members did not use the majority of the plugin or additions. so for a couple of years i told the developer what the issues are and asked if they could make a lite, small version,  such as, Store, product list, product search, click and buy. thats how my members use it.
    As yet developers have taken no action but instead kept making upgrades with bugs. I was quoted $5000 to create such a plugin, i nearly choked on my coffee.. $5000 for a plugin that already exists and only needed to be scaled back...  NOOOOO i said. so i got an old plugin and scaled it back myself in 1 Hour and it works great. Just turned off some features, thats all.

    I always look through the Store to see if anything new is available. sadly No. seems like developers have stopped developing.. Many 3rd party plugins are very similar to each other not nothing special and most of them i have tried and rejected or deleted from my site..

    I have given up with 3rd party plugins now.. My members and i want something that works, is fun, small and lite. They dont care if it has bells and flashing lights and sparkly things, they just to have fun with something that works, thats simple to use.

    I have been away for a while, and in that time, things have changed, business and members work different, work or play smarter and want new innovative things. But it seems 3rd part developers have been asleep and not noticed the change that has been happening for several years.

    One rule i always try and stick to is: If you dont change, if you dont evolve, sooner or later you will become irrelevant, unwanted, outdated and in the end you will fade into a memory.. Just ask the Neanderthals... ooops sorry , youre too late, they died out because they failed to change, adapt, evolve and so faded into memory.

    We Want Change, when do we want it, Now...

    Remember 3rd party developers...there are always more and newer and innovative developers waiting to take your place. Just saying...

    Anyway, must go... got 3rd party plugin bugs and issues to report..

    Mikel.

     

     

    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 1:45 PM EDT

     

    Donna said:

    Keep this thread on topic for third party improvements. You can't throw various topics in one thread as it gets too confusing and hard to follow. It is not so simple to remove mootools and other things and introduce code. We already have v6 in the works with vast improvements. We have to take it little by little due to the code as it is. But, that is for a different thread and if you want to keep this thread running, keep it on topic to how to improve third party. If you want to discuss SE core code, another thread should be done but keep it on target and non bashing. Constructive is always better than destructive. Remember, it is not simple in a script with 100,000 lines of code and things that interconnect. As well as third party - if we do things too fast you won't be able to use your plugins at all as the experts won't be able to provide updates easily. Start a new thread and I can explain some of what's coming in v6 and beyond.

    On the topic of this thread for third party products. That is not so simple either. I also have plugins I make under my ScriptTechs company. The reason I started making plugins back at that other script was the same reason you mention. I know how it goes. It is not just an SE issue. I've been to many scripts and was a manager at our top competitor. The issue is seen in any script. Every script I've tried. It is not third party. It is not client. It is a combination. The culture of the entire development community needs to change. This is one of my own personal goals as well and I have talked extensively with SNS on this particular topic as they work with us. Their goal is also improvement. But, it is also client attitude that has to change so don't put it all on developers. If you don't admit that change is needed on both fronts, then you won't ever solve the problem.

    To be improved:

    Developers:

    1. Look first to the need. Don't look first to what plugin is already made and then make a copy. In our private developer area, I have said many many times to be innovative. Do it. Make it light, fast and simple. Don't overbuild to grab a dollar.

    2. Stop with the heavy bundles. You know it hurts a client to have such a large bundle. Again, think first to the actual need. I have seen clients come to BryZar and end up having to take huge servers just because they install every plugin in the big bundles. They don't need half of them. They don't need the expense. These bundles are so big that our core developer had to manually upload them to the storage server. WTH?

    3. Stop making plugins that you know will hurt a client. Fake user generators, Backups (every host offers backup), RSS generators (the worst plugin ever made as it can crash a site and get google banned for copying content), and anything else that you know isn't really needed. Greed. Plain and simple greed.

    4. If you have a bug, fix the damned thing. How many times have I found bugs that clients send me tickets complaining that they have to purchase support over and over again at your sites just to get fixed. It takes me one test to see the bug? Fix it. (this is not meaning custom work, that'll be discussed in the client area)

    5. Stop paying for reviews. This hurts us worse than anything. It fosters an air of mistrust when clients see all positive reviews. NO ONE has all positive reviews for 5,000 reviews. I will be removing that review system at some point because it is the worst practice and you all do it. It is even against policy.

    6. Listen. Learn. Clients are the ones using the products. If you hear from more than one client that x feature is needed, or x feature is not good, listen to that feedback. Improve the product for the ones using it. It will pay off with better loyalty from clients who feel a connection with you and an appreciation for the effort to improve. 

    7. Stop looking for ways to pick a client clean. We (the SE team) are passionate about providing a way for clients to achieve their dreams. To lift themselves up. To realize success. Your practices to find a way to take every dollar destroy their dream and that hurts. James, our CEO, always says "with love" in mind. Do things with love in your heart. Maybe it sounds cliche. But this is the core of SE. The real core. We actually care. It's not a slogan. We give a damn about helping our extended family of clients and experts to achieve success and to soar beyond their wildest dreams. 

     

    Clients:

    1. Look at the demo of a plugin. Ask questions of the developer about features you are looking for. This is very important. If a feature is not there, expect that you need to either pay for it to be done or wait for it to be added if the developer deems it a great feature to have. 

    Angel: I spent almost a month of my time exploring the demos, reading each description and asking questions, they can confirm it for you, if they have transparent policies. The descriptions are very attractive because they say that they can achieve, in found many broken links in their demos (I reported to them as well) , I think I have asked all the necessary questions, after that dimension I was aware of what I could and not do with "x" plugin, it helped me to build my expectation . I ended up believing and trusted me, the surprise came later.

     

    2. Do not ever blackmail a developer to get free customization or plugins or service. This means, don't say you will post bad feedback just to get x feature or whatever. Realize that this developer has staff and they all have families to feed too. I have been on the receiving end of this many times myself until someone realizes I am staff. Someone wants some color change, some little feature, etc etc. Those things take time and time is money that the developer has to pay someone to do or take from updating their plugins, or making new stuff, just to do. This practice ruins developers and drives off the good ones. 

    Angel: I never blackmail a developer in that way, in my situation, SNS deliberately asked me for "support" to give them a good review in exchange for doing things that I assumed was part of the corrections, as "I was new at that the time", I was weak and did it.  You can see and confirm my review in their profile page here, it was made on October, same month when I made the purchase and started creating ticket for them, but even after doing it, they took ridiculously long time to do what they had to do.

    On another occasion, when they realized that one of my ticket request required something specific, they offered me to do it in exchange for a good review, I was clear with them, saying that this is not correct. this time I did not post any review, after that, they started giving me an attitude, they were the ones who started to answer my messages through the chat in a disrespectful way, and in certain tickets this could also be confirmed, I am a mediating, flexible, reconciling person, I think of the others first , before myself, I am an educated person, but everything has limits.

    3. Don't have unreal expectations. Everyone has hours of operation. Do not expect a developer to drop everything to attend to your every need or to respond like you are at McDonald's drive through. Things take time. There may be other tickets. If you haven't whitelisted their email, you may not even be receiving answers. I have seen experts having to work through holidays because a client did #2 above and then these experts had to skip these important family events in order to save their business. Yes, save it. Why? Because they know that a bad review can kill their business and destroy their dreams. 

    Angel: Here, I do not agree with you, but I respect the point. I invite you to ask James, your CEO, what he thinks about this.

    A person who starts any business, if they really care about the business (clients and employees) does what they have to do to ensure that everything is working as well as possible, but it is difficult to have this mentality when people are not the owners, directors, CEOs, etc.

    Again, in my experience, I had to wait ridiculously several days for SNS to solve a bug for me, because they had taken one of their long festivities, that happened almost immediately after I made the purchase  (October 2019), they were out around five days, really?

    But if we are talking about people or companies that do NOT care about their business. Well, they do not want to work anything extra, but that is another tale.

    4. If you want customizations done, realize that those need custom updates too so budget for it. Don't expect the developer to budget for it. Again, they need to eat too. Don't be selfish. For custom work, plan it out. Have it detailed. I prefer mind mapping (there is free software) as it provides a flowchart of all of the features you expect. If you are thorough with your customization request, it'll go a long way to having a successful project for you and a great relationship with the expert you choose. 

    Angel: I agree with you, but this is a two-edged sword, I will summarize it in this...

    I believe that no one who strong and honest values and appreciate the real and true customer service would  not refuse to pay any price for something well done.

    But, clients  that are already stuck with people or companies that in their business model is to do things intentionally to get more money, we cannot tell them I have thousands of dollars for them to do a little customization. I'm Sorry.

    It's not that we're selfish, we need to protect our money as well, see my situation, I have been working with them since last October, no only them are losing money, me too, and guest why? it is not because I am taking moths to change colors, font-size or position of content, it because some plugins were released with a lot of bugs, and they third parties are giving silly excuses before fixing them.

    5. If you customize a plugin, don't expect free support from an expert to fix issues as your customization can be causing the issues. No script I know of offers support for customized stuff. It is an unrealistic expectation. 

    AngelHere, I agree more or less, because again, in my situation, since many (not all) of the configurations do not make sense, we have to look for the way how to adapts them to work on regular basis and make sure they have better common sense. Now, if after this, something goes wrong we ended up asking for assistance, but because a field was move of position (above instead below) or change size of font, they cannot use that excuse to said "our you already touched it", in my case again, I can proof this statement.

    6. Stop looking for ways to get free stuff. We (the SE team) are passionate about providing a way for developers to achieve their dreams. To lift themselves up. To realize success. Your desire to get every customization for free destroys their dream and that hurts. James, our CEO, always says "with love" in mind. Do things with love in your heart. Maybe it sounds cliche. But this is the core of SE. The real core. We actually care. It's not a slogan. We give a damn about helping our extended family of clients and experts to achieve success and to soar beyond their wildest dreams. Remember, on the other end of that computer is a developer who also has a family to feed and staff to pay who also have families. Every customization they do costs them money that has to come from someplace. 

    Angel: I am glad reading about Jame's philosophy, that is the right thing to do, but it is very easy to see that philosophy does not reach third parties, based on actions, which in the end is what counts.

    Again, if someone from any side (SE team members, developers and clients) are not not open to dedication and make every effort to ensure that their customers are happy, they should go out of business, that simple.

    The family is the most important thing, and they are not the only one with families, we also have family and live. But without money, you cannot help them, if you are not rich, guess what?

    Yes...you must work very hard, I am working more than 15 hours per day, and very often in order to follow up tickets with SNS I have to sacrifice time with family or rest less because I have to be awake until 1 or 2 in the morning because, you got the point?

    I could complain that they SHOULD be more considerate with their clients with 12 hours of difference, but THEY DON'T. 

    Yes this was long. But I've seen this for well over 10 years in so many scripts. It's time to change. We need to all work together for that change. Invite experts to this thread too. Let them provide insight. The goal here should be improving this environment. 

    Angel: Finally, you just said it all, you have been seeing this for at least 10 years and what happened ?

     --- New way ---

    Hello Donna, With all my respect, I do understand every single point that you mention, I think you want to see yourself balanced in your position between developers and clients, it's perfect. I, as a customer now that this is on the table, I have to say, I will follow the order of your points.

    Donna I really appreciate your observations, we have a lot to do, but in order to move forward we must stop making excuses and demonstrate with honest and real facts. Best Regards.


    This post was edited by Angel at July 11, 2020 3:31 PM EDT
    • Moderator
    • 5090 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:48 PM EDT

     @Angel, could you do those of us reading a favor and ensure that you are not putting your answer also in the quote box when quoting someone? It is very hard to find your answer from the post you are quoting and we will miss points you are trying to make. You can tell the difference after posting if it is all greyed in the background like your posts all are when you quote. It would be super helpful if you can pay close attention to the quote and then post your answer underneath it by hitting the Enter button to get some space and making sure you're not indented (still in the quote box). Thank you :)

     


    This post was edited by Donna at July 11, 2020 2:49 PM EDT
    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:55 PM EDT
    Donna said:

     @Angel, could you do those of us reading a favor and ensure that you are not putting your answer also in the quote box when quoting someone? It is very hard to find your answer from the post you are quoting and we will miss points you are trying to make. You can tell the difference after posting if it is all greyed in the background like your posts all are when you quote. It would be super helpful if you can pay close attention to the quote and then post your answer underneath it by hitting the Enter button to get some space and making sure you're not indented (still in the quote box). Thank you :)

     

    Let me try to see how it works, because when I want to reply (quote) I start writing on the top of all content. In this one, I wrote on the bottom (below) your comment.

    • 57 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:56 PM EDT
    Angel said:
    Donna said:

     @Angel, could you do those of us reading a favor and ensure that you are not putting your answer also in the quote box when quoting someone? It is very hard to find your answer from the post you are quoting and we will miss points you are trying to make. You can tell the difference after posting if it is all greyed in the background like your posts all are when you quote. It would be super helpful if you can pay close attention to the quote and then post your answer underneath it by hitting the Enter button to get some space and making sure you're not indented (still in the quote box). Thank you :)

     

    Let me try to see how it works, because when I want to reply (quote) I start writing on the top of all content. In this one, I wrote on the bottom (below) your comment.

     

    - Ok, looks like it worked, right? so we must write below instead at the beginning. 

     

    • Moderator
    • 5090 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:57 PM EDT
    Angel said:
    Donna said:

     @Angel, could you do those of us reading a favor and ensure that you are not putting your answer also in the quote box when quoting someone? It is very hard to find your answer from the post you are quoting and we will miss points you are trying to make. You can tell the difference after posting if it is all greyed in the background like your posts all are when you quote. It would be super helpful if you can pay close attention to the quote and then post your answer underneath it by hitting the Enter button to get some space and making sure you're not indented (still in the quote box). Thank you :)

     

    Let me try to see how it works, because when I want to reply (quote) I start writing on the top of all content. In this one, I wrote on the bottom (below) your comment.

    Yes this one worked well. Thank you :)

    • 294 posts
    July 13, 2020 11:31 AM EDT

    Hello Folks

    I was just writing on another topic by angel and just thought i would place just a section of it on here.. it could be worth a thought..

     

    Anyway just a few points to remember:
    1, SE is a Platform (the groundworks on to which a 3rd party dev builds or connects a plugin)
    Explanation: SE has land / ground. Dev wants to build a wall. So SE lets dev build a wall on the land/ground. Problem is, dev did not test the land / ground to see if it is good enough to build a 3 tonne wall. Wall weighs 3 tonnes and ground will only support a 1 tonne wall. soon the wall cracks and collapses because the land cannot support the 3 tonne weight and a bird gets injured and can not catch the juicy worm to feed its family, poor bird.

    2, 3rd party Dev is responsible to ensure that their Plugins work  (without issue) on the SE Platform and NOT SE.
    2a, 3rd party devs should have the latest version SE platform to place their plugins and get trialled / demoed by SE Clients/members to test the life out of the plugin to find the bugs and errors. But i dont think they will.

    3, Understand that SE Platform is a Desktop platform with a Mobile feature (so plugins and big plugins will have or may have issues if not used Viewed on desktop Pc's) (Mobile devices will alter the site and move tabs and functions to fit the device and screen)

    4, Keep your site Small and lite by ONLY having small , lite plugins that you actually NEED. This will help your server and fetch download and Upload speed and times for mobile devices and desktop. Also remember WiFi can also play a part in creating issues especially with download and upload functions. So the more work and strain your site user puts on the server...

    5, Hopefully in future SE could find a way of reversing the Platform build: Instead of Desktop platform with a mobile feature, but build a Mobile platform only or with a desktop feature.

    mikel.

    • 57 posts
    July 13, 2020 12:04 PM EDT
    mikel said:

    Hello Folks

    I was just writing on another topic by angel and just thought i would place just a section of it on here.. it could be worth a thought..

     

    Anyway just a few points to remember:
    1, SE is a Platform (the groundworks on to which a 3rd party dev builds or connects a plugin)
    Explanation: SE has land / ground. Dev wants to build a wall. So SE lets dev build a wall on the land/ground. Problem is, dev did not test the land / ground to see if it is good enough to build a 3 tonne wall. Wall weighs 3 tonnes and ground will only support a 1 tonne wall. soon the wall cracks and collapses because the land cannot support the 3 tonne weight and a bird gets injured and can not catch the juicy worm to feed its family, poor bird.

    2, 3rd party Dev is responsible to ensure that their Plugins work  (without issue) on the SE Platform and NOT SE.
    2a, 3rd party devs should have the latest version SE platform to place their plugins and get trialled / demoed by SE Clients/members to test the life out of the plugin to find the bugs and errors. But i dont think they will.

    3, Understand that SE Platform is a Desktop platform with a Mobile feature (so plugins and big plugins will have or may have issues if not used Viewed on desktop Pc's) (Mobile devices will alter the site and move tabs and functions to fit the device and screen)

    4, Keep your site Small and lite by ONLY having small , lite plugins that you actually NEED. This will help your server and fetch download and Upload speed and times for mobile devices and desktop. Also remember WiFi can also play a part in creating issues especially with download and upload functions. So the more work and strain your site user puts on the server...

    5, Hopefully in future SE could find a way of reversing the Platform build: Instead of Desktop platform with a mobile feature, but build a Mobile platform only or with a desktop feature.

    mikel.

    Good Mikel, I hope you are okay, safe and free of Covid-19 , I loved your analogy in your first paragraph. I am wondering who could be the bird and the worm .  Have a good Monday and week, months, and years! Best Regards.

    • 294 posts
    July 13, 2020 3:20 PM EDT

    Hello Angel..
    I am good.. Im covid free   thank you.. You have a good and healthy year also..

    mikel.